We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
A SURVEY HAS indicated that 40% of students didn’t choose to study science at college because they found it too difficult.
The independent survey was commissioned as part of the launch of the 54th BT Young Scientist & Technology Exhibition today.
The survey is being used to indicate the importance of an early introduction to science and technology, and that it’s crucial to teach them in an enjoyable practical way.
The survey asked third-level students to identify levels and origins of interest in science and technology. Key findings include:
But the research did indicate a positive link in Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths (STEM) subjects and events at second-level:
Shay Walsh, Managing Director of BT Ireland who have been sponsoring the competition for 18 years now, said that the research “proves that initiatives like BTYSTE play an important role in cultivating an interest in science, maths, engineering and technology at the grassroots,
“…It also highlights the need for schools to encourage their students to choose science or technology subjects at exam level to maintain that interest.
For students, the future really does start here so I would encourage every student to consider getting involved in the BTYSTE to see for themselves how exciting and vast the world of science and technology can be.
This year’s BT Young Scientist & Technology Exhibition will take place from the 10 -13 January 2018 at the RDS, Dublin.
The exhibition offers one of the most coveted awards for participants, with a substantial prize fund and the BTYSTE perpetual trophy, as well as over 140 prizes for individuals, groups and teachers.
Last year, the Young Scientist recorded the highest ever number of entries proving that the popularity of the exhibition and engagement in STEM events is growing year on year.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Just curious here, but has this competition been held anywhere else apart from the RDS, just a quick google search shows that 5 of the last 7 winners were from Dublin. There is probably a reason for it (financial?), but wouldn’t it be better to bring this around the country maybe having it in each province every four years. I feel this would be a more well-rounded initiative to promote science around the country.
@Jack M: it may be a matter of prestige, as well as proximity to the largest concentration of secondary schools in the country. Recall when I was a contestant (a very poor one) in 1980 we got a couple free nights in Jury’s in Dublin paid for by Aer Lingus when they sponsored the YSC.
It really is a fantastic event. I’ve supported stands there for employers in recent years and my God the quality of the exhibits just blew me away. What we need is an increase in quantity, and your idea is an excellent one, but for the reasons above it may not fly. There are regional heats, or there were, if I recall correctly. The only reason I got in was because that particular year I was the only entrant from Cavan.
@Jack M: costs are covered by BT Young Scientist for those attending.
@Evan Crowley: rubbish. There is a small grant but it can end up costing competing schools or the students families a small fortune.
Worth it though. For the profile the practice the privilege. And to see all the other amazing exhibits and talk to other students of like mind. Do sponsored walks and things. Apply scientific method to see the metabolic benefit of said sponsored walk and encourage exercise. Have local science fests. Charge entrance fees to sub competitors.
I’d suspect two reasons at least for this:
1) Maths is taught so badly at primary and second level it is easy for a student to miss out on key concepts and thereafter to lag farther and farther back in progressing the curriculum.
2) Critical thinking is not a strength of the Irish generally, thanks to the insidious influence of Catholicism on education that sought to limit and crush any such thinking amongst the Flock, or Sheeple, the same way the little man in the Wizard of Oz sought to stop any from drawing back his curtain. Yet critical thinking is essential to the formation of a scientific mind. All scientific theories are just waiting to be demolished, and there is nothing scientists love more than demolishing their own theories. The opposite applies to theology and theologians.
@John O’Driscoll: Your first point is a very broad generalisation. It’s compulsory now and in the past few years that a LC maths teacher has to hold a degree in maths and not like in my day where a business or economics graduate taught me maths.
@Gary: well of course it is. I did my Leaving in 1983 and maths was taught horrendously badly then. But I have four kids, the oldest finishing up in UCD this year, and though they’ve all had/having good educations I still had to get them grinds in maths to up the results because – still – maths are being taught badly, even in ”good” schools, and the good friend of mine who’s a professor in nuclear physics back in her home country and who teaches applied maths here and who gave my daughter her grinds agrees.
There’ll always be exceptions that prove rules but I think still there are huge lacks in Irish, Maths, and other subjects and the way they are taught here. Do we even teach Critical Thinking as a subject? Don’t believe so. We should.
@John O’Driscoll: What a load of bollocks. The man who theorized the Big Bang and expansion of the universe was Father George Lemaître, a Belgian astronomer and professor of physics in Leuven. Many other examples, some of the greatest scientific discoveries were made by Catholics, so you can remove your head from your ass. I’d worry more about the Social Justice Warriors banning free speech.
@Mártan Ó Conghaile: obviously touched a nerve there Martan. No, it isn’t as you describe. Not all Irish Catholic priests and nuns and lay teachers were eminent scientists like Lemaitre or the great John Polkinghorne.
Many were ignorant farmers’ sons and daughters hoicked out of the bog and shoved through Maynooth’s Thomist (and don’t you dare dispute or digress from it!) received ‘wisdom’ and let loose on us kids after an H.Dip. Fine for teaching the Catechism. Not so fine for teaching Critical Thinking and the bits of biology that they knew as much about in reality from seeing cows and sheep doing it as from any textbook. I remember one or other of the priests that taught us getting lathered up about how dinosaurs were all a big con job meant to test our faith. Really.
No need to be crude and insulting either Martan. It generally doesn’t help the conversation though if it makes you feel better to get it off your chest fire away I suppose.
I like George Gamow’s take on it: ”There was a young fellow from Trinity
Who took the square root of infinity
But the number of digits
Gave him the fidgets
He dropped Maths and took up Divinity.”
@John O’Driscoll: “Critical thinking is not a strength of the Irish generally, thanks to the insidious influence of Catholicism on education that sought to limit and crush any such thinking amongst the Flock”
As much as I detest the RCC and their ridiculous beliefs, I have to say they had no effect on my schooling although It was a Catholic school I attended. Kids have access to so much information now that wasn’t there 30 years ago. FFS we had one PC in the school and that wasn’t connected to the Internet. I doubt the “teachings” of the catholic church would rub off on any child with a bit of sense now unless there was indoctrination in the home too. But lets face it.. that’s not going to happen in 90% of Irish homes.
@John O’Driscoll: A problem too is that they have to follow a curriculum laid out by the all knowing and mighty Dept. Of Education.
@ John O’Driscoll seems to me that you and your family weren’t blessed with the “maths gene”. Don’t take it personally
It wouldn’t just be Ireland either. When I was leaving the RC Primary school run by savage Irish Nuns in England we were given a stern warning “as you leave here and go out into the world you will meet many evil people who are liars. They are also called protestants and scientists” They were serious. That was good enough for me to want to meet them all.
My oldest got 550 points in her Leaving there and I think an A in pass maths. She should have done honours. But anyway specious concepts such as “maths genes” aside (can you tell me which chromosome it is located on?) my kids are fine intelligence wise. Obviously didn’t get it from their dad but there y’go they just have to be happy with inheriting my movie star looks instead.
The lad who batthered the education out of me in national school wasn’t overly fond of Protestants and English lads either. Got rid of my 7 year old English accent right quick an all he did with his bata and fists.
My best mate from age 6 is COI and I had an English accent at that age having been born and raised there as a toddler but we became brothers in arms under the báta of a brutal hick national,school teacher who didn’t like either as he told us between swipes and clattherings. D.G. all that’s gone now. How did we learn anything at all is a mystery to me still.
@Gary: that is not true. Once registered with the teaching council and employed by the ETB a school can actually deploy a teacher where it sees fit. The only ‘clause’ is that to have a subject registered with the Teaching Council you must have a degree in it. Those subjects will be your msin/primary teaching subjects, but you can actually be asked to teach anything.
@Gary: Curricula are developed by the NCCA, not the Dept of Ed & Sci.
@Gary: you’re completely wrong. Hardly any maths teachers actually have a degree in maths. They usually have a degree in something related like a general science degree with a significant math content. Graduates with real maths degrees are in big demand and as such command salaries way beyond a teachers starting salary. It’s high time the department of education paid extra for proper maths teachers with real maths degrees but I guess the teachers unions would throw a proposal like that out the window.
It’s much easier to do Women’s Studies.
@Eamon Mac Gowan: I’d find this funny if it wasn’t so ridiculous unfunny, no banter points for you.
@Philip Dunne: How about this? https://img.ifcdn.com/images/762d7fcd03332ab56c8608ad5d4f2ccecdc9484b8ac1d7ca36c06f037361ef5b_1.jpg
So which science did you specialise in Eamon?
You lads are all so pathetic. You’re blaming women wanting liberation from patriarchy for your problems, which are caused by class issues. Unfortunately the lot of you are too thick to figure that out, with the aforementioned thickness probably contributing your problems too. Read a book about the subject instead of watching Elam videos. Jaysus.
@Veronica: every time you harp on about the patriarchy, you lose whatever credibility you have left.
@gjpb: Mmmmmhmmmm. It’s not like all of yous go on to prove my points, or anything though, is it?
@Veronica: thankfully, we all have equal access right now to study whatever we want.
get over the past and lose the eternal bitterness
@Veronica: The ‘patriarchy’, eh? Pat Condell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjN8xP0i6Ak
@Veronica: the patriarchy? https://media.giphy.com/media/Zjesq6ESI9dS/giphy.gif
@Veronica: I’m confused, are you disputing that Women’s studies courses are far easier than science courses (and that the difficulty of STEM courses are related to their comparatively low uptake), or what exactly is your point?
STEM courses are outrageously more difficult than arts courses in general, and especially arts courses like Gender/Women’s studies. I say this as a college student who has had exposure to the course content of both faculties.
@Malachi: No, I’m saying that it’s ridiculous and pathetic that the likes of Eamon would bring up women’s studies on an article about how difficult science courses are. The chips on his shoulders must have him on his knees at this stage.
I know how hard STEM courses are, and I’m also aware of how hard Arts courses are. It’s ridiculous to say that one is more difficult than the other. People tend to do what they’re interested in and usually good at. I found science a difficult enough course, but if I had taken an arts course I would have found it immensely more difficult.
@Veronica: “The chips on his shoulders must have him on his knees at this stage.”
It’s irrelevant to the article, granted. Some people will do anything to get in a dig, but it doesn’t automatically make them wrong.
“It’s ridiculous to say that one is more difficult than the other.”
It’s really, really not. Science courses at top Irish Universities have some of the most demanding course content around, especially some of the health sciences. In terms of sheer volume of work (both lecture hours and lecture content) they are absolutely far more demanding than arts courses almost all across the board.
The people who drop out of arts courses don’t do so because they’re “hard” (like we see above w/ science courses), more because they find them uninteresting or realise the job opportunities are sparse to say the least.
There’s a reason the country is flooded with arts degree holders with nowhere to go – the courses are low barrier of entry, low standard (due to low barrier of entry) and have low employability relative to STEM… yet arts/humanities is by far the most popular course type.
So what’s the objective here? Shovel more bodies into science courses and keep dropping the standards until we get the right numbers, evenly balanced and all the rest? STEM is clearly not for everyone and forcing students into it to play some numbers game is a waste of everyone’s time.
@8bitplebian: Not that it even matters, there’s not enough jobs in science in the country as it is. Most of the people I went to college with have either left the field or have moved abroad.
I went to an all girls secondary school and for the Junior Cert music was compulsory but science was optional… the majority of girls didn’t choose science (they chose house wife training also know as home economics ) so they never actually experienced the subject in the first place, it was a joke. However I went on to study computer science!
@Jill: Shameful nonsense from your secondary school, sorry to say. This stupid idea that we have to make the ‘artsy’ subjects mandatory for girls (because heaven forbid they’d be interested in science!) should be ancient history by now.
@Malachi: It was shameful nonsense! I hope they have changed it but I’m not sure. I left that school in 2012.
@Fake Avast: I would say the turnout was average for most schools although few went on to study anything science or maths related. I was the only one to do computer science. There definitely was some very clever girls that went on to do well in difficult degrees (Vet, medicine, commerce, psychology etc)
Just because some one is good at maths and has a degree in it doesn’t mean they have the ability to be good as a teacher. I had a highly educated maths teacher who just was unable to control a class or pass on his knowledge
Our national broadcaster is so eager to shape political opinion that it cannot find space to have programs that create an interest in science.
@Tom Molloy: It could cut Are You Being Served?
@Tom Molloy: that may change now the appalling Prone/Savage Goebbels team is no more at RTE. Though doubtless Terry still knows where all the political bodies are buried and will continue thus to control the vertical and the horizontal on behalf of her political paymasters who’d be too terrified of her to do other than kow-tow to her. Hopefully time and tide will wash her away in due course.
Isn’t “it’s too difficult” just another way of saying I don’t have the ability?
@George Roche: Gosh you’re polite, I was going to say it meant that they were too stupid.
@Fake Avast: You’re such a misogynist!
Surely this goes back to 4th year when a student sits and thinks how will I get the maximum amount of points for the least amount effort – that’s when science and honours maths loses out.
By the time they’ve done the Leaving Cert they’re comfortable/ more interested with English, Irish, History, Business etc. and so they continue that on to third level.
Why bother pick a science subject when you can pick up easy points in other subjects. The Irish system is not about education, it’s about points.
Most science subject you need to understand unlike some others where they’re just facts or subjective, particularly maths, which I was pretty rubbish at….I just didn’t get the abstract stuff, my hubby and son are engineers and sometimes when they are talking ‘maths’ it’s truly like another language.
Teachers need to use more and better online resources, properly curated by good teachers.
Tech & start ups etc are the new speculators after the banking casino capitalism that crashed spectacularly in 2008.
When you come out of college after 4/5 years with a BEng or MEng and are greeted by a 25K a year salary after studying one of the hardest cores (Engineering) in college there are issues there.
That, or the fact the >35 hour college weeks for an engineering subject compared to the 4/5 hour per week Arts “Degree” – most 17/18 year olds would pick the later. Why spend time stressing over Second Order Linear Differential Equations when you could sit with a coffee in the back of a lecture learning about the bloody 4 P’s of Marketing or the History of Trousers. They will always pick the easy way out.
Science course in college up to 40 hours including labs 5 days a week. Business,arts 20 something hours a week.
If you manage to get a grant, it is same for both courses.
@Patrick: In arts courses you’re expected to be able to direct your own learning and to schedule your own time to do the coursework, which is something I unfortunately did not learn while studying science. In science you’re not expected to direct your own learning at all.
Bjork is looking well these days.
Last comment (apols for blathering on and not even a scientist but work with a lot of them) (hear what they say) suppose not very PC but the way the system is set up there is a lot of deadwood and burnout. And it has to filter through to retirement no other way. Not that I believe poor people who’ve burned out and aren’t great at the jobs they now find themselves doing which wouldn’t be the job they signed up for should be mistreated or in any way denied their rights. Just think early retirement programmes or as they might be called voluntary separation (and involuntary) with good packages would be cheaper in the long run versus the damage done to Ireland in terms of falling behind in STEM and indeed STEAM considering the competition we face from abroad and the East from Poland to PRC.
The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for but not in the way people think. Copernicus was part of the clergy and dedicated his work on the reasons for a Sun centered system to the Pope. It was only later at the time of Galileo when things jumped the tracks leading to the Catholic Church jettisoning its scientific heritage thereby creating the current science vs religion, myth vs truth or some other variation on that theme that most now accept and express as convictions.
The journal readership ,judging from comments and experience,are generally lost when it comes to the historical and technical developments surrounding science and what is taught and why it is taught the way it is.
The Pope at the time of Galileo had argued that the system which predicts astronomical events like eclipses and planetary transits could not be used to prove the Earth’s motions, in this case he was correct but it takes 21st century imaging to make sense of the whole thing. In the absence of a resolution it left room for the mischief of the late 17th century when empiricism went on a rampage through astronomy and turned it into the voodoo junkyard that it has now become with a lot of followers who know no better.
How many can honestly say they learned what Copernicus did at school or college and how he figured out the Sun was at the centre of the solar system by setting the Earth in motion and accounting for the observed behavior of the outer planets ?.
Perhaps Ptolemy had a point with his epicycles and deferents though not obviously his earth centred universe.
@John O’Driscoll: Thanks for the voodoo but the faster Earth overtaking the slower moving outer planets causes them to temporarily fall behind in view like a faster car in an inner lane on a roundabout sees slower moving cars in outer lanes fall behind in view -
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif
This is the main argument for why the Earth moves and the Sun doesn’t but there is a reason nobody learned it at school. You would do well to have a good look at the motions of Jupiter and Saturn seen from a moving Earth and especially how they move backwards (retrograde motion) as gauged against the background stars.
Thanks Gerald I was more musing that perhaps somehow Ptolemy had inferred albeit incorrectly concluded the consequence of the phenomena you describe and used his incorrect deductions to further his earth-centric thesis. The eart rotates around the sun like marbles rotating around the dip in a tight rubber sheet that would be made by a large bowling ball placed there on. Such is the effect of huge masses upon the fabric of space time. Except the marbles stop when they reach bottom or come up against the bowling ball. If that happened us Twould be a disaster but as they are falling through infinite space the planets and sun just keep rolling together but apart round the solar system rollin round the galaxy which itself rotates and all rotates. All is in motion relative to all else always.
Eppure si muove one might murmur.
Thanks for the pointer to the APOD app though looks cool must use
http://apodapp.com
have your say